)]}'
{"resolutions/20170517-document-lack-of-postgres-support.rst":[{"author":{"_account_id":2750,"name":"Sean Dague","email":"sean@dague.net","username":"sdague"},"change_message_id":"ebbd961ddd45ba908239d3da326096e98542326d","unresolved":false,"context_lines":[{"line_number":12,"context_line":""},{"line_number":13,"context_line":"* there is very limited testing of the use of PostgreSQL in CI"},{"line_number":14,"context_line":"* there is very limited expertise and attention to the use of PostgreSQL in"},{"line_number":15,"context_line":"  OpenStack in the upstream community"},{"line_number":16,"context_line":""},{"line_number":17,"context_line":"To make this situation clear we should:"},{"line_number":18,"context_line":""}],"source_content_type":"text/x-rst","patch_set":1,"id":"ff0f0b1f_0f971593","line":15,"updated":"2017-05-17 14:10:39.000000000","message":"this should also be extended to the operator community as well. There is a lot of information sharing and best practices around that at ops summits which is *all* about MySQL.","commit_id":"b6e645943a58e439a52514d8cb2699bbbe2892d3"},{"author":{"_account_id":11564,"name":"Chris Dent","email":"cdent@anticdent.org","username":"chdent"},"change_message_id":"dec2a496bafe432bbfd4b85488a3f281ff8ac8c6","unresolved":false,"context_lines":[{"line_number":12,"context_line":""},{"line_number":13,"context_line":"* there is very limited testing of the use of PostgreSQL in CI"},{"line_number":14,"context_line":"* there is very limited expertise and attention to the use of PostgreSQL in"},{"line_number":15,"context_line":"  OpenStack in the upstream community"},{"line_number":16,"context_line":""},{"line_number":17,"context_line":"To make this situation clear we should:"},{"line_number":18,"context_line":""}],"source_content_type":"text/x-rst","patch_set":1,"id":"ff0f0b1f_6fcb311e","line":15,"in_reply_to":"ff0f0b1f_0f971593","updated":"2017-05-17 14:22:16.000000000","message":"for reference IRC chat about this: http://p.anticdent.org/3JCA","commit_id":"b6e645943a58e439a52514d8cb2699bbbe2892d3"},{"author":{"_account_id":11437,"name":"Jim Meyer","email":"jim@geekdaily.org","username":"jim.meyer"},"change_message_id":"ed8832e709f7989e413a78c123f1d6da83e4caa6","unresolved":false,"context_lines":[{"line_number":10,"context_line":"At this time there are two situations which make it clear that the OpenStack"},{"line_number":11,"context_line":"community should clarify its position on the use of PostgreSQL:"},{"line_number":12,"context_line":""},{"line_number":13,"context_line":"* there is very limited testing of the use of PostgreSQL in CI"},{"line_number":14,"context_line":"* there is very limited expertise and attention to the use of PostgreSQL in"},{"line_number":15,"context_line":"  OpenStack in the upstream community"},{"line_number":16,"context_line":""}],"source_content_type":"text/x-rst","patch_set":3,"id":"ff0f0b1f_eeef39ae","line":13,"range":{"start_line":13,"start_character":2,"end_line":13,"end_character":62},"updated":"2017-05-17 19:47:41.000000000","message":"This is a choice, not an imposed constraint.","commit_id":"ad1eb40c1e04cd2923f602f2873bc2b93210f261"},{"author":{"_account_id":2750,"name":"Sean Dague","email":"sean@dague.net","username":"sdague"},"change_message_id":"6034f050d45d06672b49c483690336f21479a813","unresolved":false,"context_lines":[{"line_number":12,"context_line":""},{"line_number":13,"context_line":"* there is very limited testing of the use of PostgreSQL in CI"},{"line_number":14,"context_line":"* there is very limited expertise and attention to the use of PostgreSQL in"},{"line_number":15,"context_line":"  OpenStack in the upstream community"},{"line_number":16,"context_line":""},{"line_number":17,"context_line":"To make this situation clear we should:"},{"line_number":18,"context_line":""}],"source_content_type":"text/x-rst","patch_set":3,"id":"ff0f0b1f_6f669154","line":15,"updated":"2017-05-17 14:21:24.000000000","message":"I feel like this leaves out really important fact that peer to peer sharing of best practices in deployment between operators, and the ecosystem that is, is critical as well.\n\nWhile the user survey may not be a complete picture, we\u0027ve got multiple parallel lines of inquiry which is posts and answers to the openstack-operators lists (at least 20 to 1 on the mysql side). Operators meetups, which often have a mysql session, and never a pg one.\n\nRemoving the bits of preamble that include the operator community defines \"Community\" as devs only. But we didn\u0027t get to this place because of a dev only decision. We got there because as a whole community, devs, operators, users, this pattern emerged and was strengthed by feedback from deployments around things they had to change, which got made defaults in future versions.\n\nI\u0027m hard -1 on anything moving forward here that doesn\u0027t acknowledge that.","commit_id":"ad1eb40c1e04cd2923f602f2873bc2b93210f261"},{"author":{"_account_id":308,"name":"Thierry Carrez","email":"thierry@openstack.org","username":"ttx"},"change_message_id":"34dbf02620df889a47a0a2286daaf949a450a097","unresolved":false,"context_lines":[{"line_number":12,"context_line":""},{"line_number":13,"context_line":"* there is very limited testing of the use of PostgreSQL in CI"},{"line_number":14,"context_line":"* there is very limited expertise and attention to the use of PostgreSQL in"},{"line_number":15,"context_line":"  OpenStack in the upstream community"},{"line_number":16,"context_line":""},{"line_number":17,"context_line":"To make this situation clear we should:"},{"line_number":18,"context_line":""}],"source_content_type":"text/x-rst","patch_set":3,"id":"ff0f0b1f_7f872011","line":15,"in_reply_to":"ff0f0b1f_2ecd315d","updated":"2017-05-19 09:17:21.000000000","message":"There is definitely a bit of selection/availability bias at play here. There are a lot of people using postgreSQL in OpenStack (as seen in those various threads), but they are not visibly engaging upstream as much as MySQL users (in user survey, in ML, in upstream QA work...)\n\nWhere does that leave us ? The trick is that while postgreSQL users may not represent more than 5-10% of users, a deprecation of postgreSQL support will hurt them very badly (even with a migration path). So I\u0027m not sure throwing out \"20:1\" numbers really helps, as you have to take into account the amount of pain you subject the minority to.","commit_id":"ad1eb40c1e04cd2923f602f2873bc2b93210f261"},{"author":{"_account_id":11526,"name":"Martin Millnert","email":"martin@millnert.se","username":"Anticimex"},"change_message_id":"bfaf866f5d0d896bdd4c34f25c709c6128800ba7","unresolved":false,"context_lines":[{"line_number":12,"context_line":""},{"line_number":13,"context_line":"* there is very limited testing of the use of PostgreSQL in CI"},{"line_number":14,"context_line":"* there is very limited expertise and attention to the use of PostgreSQL in"},{"line_number":15,"context_line":"  OpenStack in the upstream community"},{"line_number":16,"context_line":""},{"line_number":17,"context_line":"To make this situation clear we should:"},{"line_number":18,"context_line":""}],"source_content_type":"text/x-rst","patch_set":3,"id":"ff0f0b1f_7732e7a9","line":15,"in_reply_to":"ff0f0b1f_6f669154","updated":"2017-05-17 16:06:32.000000000","message":"20:1 MySQL vs PG questions, on 10:1 MySQL vs PG deployments as per user survey, indicates that PG operators are asking fewer questions. I guess that could be viewed either as a positive or a negative thing.\n\nI will add my comment from IRC here regarding the selection bias that exists.  MySQL is essentially the default database choice in OpenStack. Thus any operator that runs PG has taken an active decision to do so, not derived from any \"which engine for what use case\" kind of recommendation from the OpenStack documentation.\nA quite fair assumption is that those deployers that have opted to run PG in fact have prior knowledge of PG maintenance and administration, and this selection bias implies their experience level on average would be higher than the average of the sum of those who didn\u0027t give the DB engine any thought and therefore ended up with MySQL, and the ones who specifically wanted to use MySQL.\n(A specific survey addressed to deployers regarding their level of expertise on their production databases would be required to get some real hard data on this aspect. I don\u0027t think this is necessary however.)\n\nI would be interested to see what the most popular database operations specific tips\u0026tricks that are getting shared around within the operator community are, how advanced they are, for the two engines, to qualify this further.","commit_id":"ad1eb40c1e04cd2923f602f2873bc2b93210f261"},{"author":{"_account_id":11437,"name":"Jim Meyer","email":"jim@geekdaily.org","username":"jim.meyer"},"change_message_id":"ed8832e709f7989e413a78c123f1d6da83e4caa6","unresolved":false,"context_lines":[{"line_number":12,"context_line":""},{"line_number":13,"context_line":"* there is very limited testing of the use of PostgreSQL in CI"},{"line_number":14,"context_line":"* there is very limited expertise and attention to the use of PostgreSQL in"},{"line_number":15,"context_line":"  OpenStack in the upstream community"},{"line_number":16,"context_line":""},{"line_number":17,"context_line":"To make this situation clear we should:"},{"line_number":18,"context_line":""}],"source_content_type":"text/x-rst","patch_set":3,"id":"ff0f0b1f_2ecd315d","line":15,"in_reply_to":"ff0f0b1f_6f669154","updated":"2017-05-17 19:47:41.000000000","message":"I\u0027m clearly the curmudgeon here (and, ironically, prefer MySQL at scale).\n\nQuoting the user survey, the openstack-operators lists, and meetups is availability bias and ignores the strong feedback and information provided in the original proposed change, I332cef8ec4539520adcf37c6d2ea11488289fcfd\n\nThere are production deployments running on PG whose operators are clearly not in any of these forums, and who have made conscious choices, either due to their own PG expertise, or their trust in the vendor who provides their OpenStack bits and/or maintains and/or manages their cloud.","commit_id":"ad1eb40c1e04cd2923f602f2873bc2b93210f261"},{"author":{"_account_id":5638,"name":"Davanum Srinivas","email":"davanum@gmail.com","username":"dims-v"},"change_message_id":"4dff9f26b61ee995e80fd0de43e6e51b539098c2","unresolved":false,"context_lines":[{"line_number":20,"context_line":""},{"line_number":21,"context_line":"    .. warning::"},{"line_number":22,"context_line":""},{"line_number":23,"context_line":"       While you may find reference to PostgreSQL within the project"},{"line_number":24,"context_line":"       trees, be aware that it is much less tested and supported than"},{"line_number":25,"context_line":"       MySQL as a backend. Proceed at your own risk in using something"},{"line_number":26,"context_line":"       other than MySQL as the database for OpenStack."}],"source_content_type":"text/x-rst","patch_set":3,"id":"ff0f0b1f_9a7802f9","line":23,"updated":"2017-05-17 16:00:38.000000000","message":"Here\u0027s what came to my head... feel free to pick any bits you feel relevant.\n\n\"Unless a specific project has documented a preference to PostgreSQL in their documentation, please consider MySQL as the main preference of any OpenStack project. If you wish to proceed at your own risk, we recommend a thorough testing of your use case scenarios. It would be prudent to test milestones and release candidates for newer releases as well to prevent any regressions\"","commit_id":"ad1eb40c1e04cd2923f602f2873bc2b93210f261"},{"author":{"_account_id":11437,"name":"Jim Meyer","email":"jim@geekdaily.org","username":"jim.meyer"},"change_message_id":"ed8832e709f7989e413a78c123f1d6da83e4caa6","unresolved":false,"context_lines":[{"line_number":20,"context_line":""},{"line_number":21,"context_line":"    .. warning::"},{"line_number":22,"context_line":""},{"line_number":23,"context_line":"       While you may find reference to PostgreSQL within the project"},{"line_number":24,"context_line":"       trees, be aware that it is much less tested and supported than"},{"line_number":25,"context_line":"       MySQL as a backend. Proceed at your own risk in using something"},{"line_number":26,"context_line":"       other than MySQL as the database for OpenStack."}],"source_content_type":"text/x-rst","patch_set":3,"id":"ff0f0b1f_eeecd9f4","line":23,"in_reply_to":"ff0f0b1f_9a7802f9","updated":"2017-05-17 19:47:41.000000000","message":"I\u0027d eliminate the either/or. Otherwise, we\u0027re likely to create further fragmentation by allowing projects to choose to use a specific database against this recommendation. \n\nAs an operator, I would not want to have to maintain DBA expertise in multiple databases in order to run my cloud. Pick one and mandate it, or don\u0027t constrain the choice.","commit_id":"ad1eb40c1e04cd2923f602f2873bc2b93210f261"},{"author":{"_account_id":6537,"name":"gordon chung","email":"gord@live.ca","username":"chungg"},"change_message_id":"f54cbe2ffa4a10849eec0a74463802652d853e89","unresolved":false,"context_lines":[{"line_number":20,"context_line":""},{"line_number":21,"context_line":"    .. warning::"},{"line_number":22,"context_line":""},{"line_number":23,"context_line":"       While you may find reference to PostgreSQL within the project"},{"line_number":24,"context_line":"       trees, be aware that it is much less tested and supported than"},{"line_number":25,"context_line":"       MySQL as a backend. Proceed at your own risk in using something"},{"line_number":26,"context_line":"       other than MySQL as the database for OpenStack."},{"line_number":27,"context_line":""},{"line_number":28,"context_line":"* Investigate the viability of the migration path from PostgreSQL to MySQL"},{"line_number":29,"context_line":"  (Suse team is currently doing this, will report back). In this investigation"}],"source_content_type":"text/x-rst","patch_set":3,"id":"ff0f0b1f_e4e3e3a3","line":26,"range":{"start_line":23,"start_character":0,"end_line":26,"end_character":54},"updated":"2017-05-17 15:12:24.000000000","message":"was gnocchi the only project that specifically had pgsql as the preferred db? if not, maybe this should have a clause saying \u0027unless pgsql is explicitly referenced, pgsql isn\u0027t supported\u0027?","commit_id":"ad1eb40c1e04cd2923f602f2873bc2b93210f261"},{"author":{"_account_id":6537,"name":"gordon chung","email":"gord@live.ca","username":"chungg"},"change_message_id":"94092878b43e959032f56f8a7bdc1b46b6e06879","unresolved":false,"context_lines":[{"line_number":20,"context_line":""},{"line_number":21,"context_line":"    .. warning::"},{"line_number":22,"context_line":""},{"line_number":23,"context_line":"       While you may find reference to PostgreSQL within the project"},{"line_number":24,"context_line":"       trees, be aware that it is much less tested and supported than"},{"line_number":25,"context_line":"       MySQL as a backend. Proceed at your own risk in using something"},{"line_number":26,"context_line":"       other than MySQL as the database for OpenStack."},{"line_number":27,"context_line":""},{"line_number":28,"context_line":"* Investigate the viability of the migration path from PostgreSQL to MySQL"},{"line_number":29,"context_line":"  (Suse team is currently doing this, will report back). In this investigation"}],"source_content_type":"text/x-rst","patch_set":3,"id":"ff0f0b1f_27b53932","line":26,"range":{"start_line":23,"start_character":0,"end_line":26,"end_character":54},"in_reply_to":"ff0f0b1f_0ec94d77","updated":"2017-05-18 14:32:37.000000000","message":"this seems to fall back on the \u0027openstack is monolithic\u0027 argument. projects should be designed/optimised for their use cases, not so that it fits an openstack template. having a template could make things easier to deploy, but it also could make what you\u0027re deploying a whole lot worse.\n\ni have no issue stating that all projects (with a sql driver) in openstack are designed for mysql, but saying they can only use mysql is wrong in my opinion. if a specific technology is the best solution to solve the use case of project, it should use that.","commit_id":"ad1eb40c1e04cd2923f602f2873bc2b93210f261"},{"author":{"_account_id":11437,"name":"Jim Meyer","email":"jim@geekdaily.org","username":"jim.meyer"},"change_message_id":"ed8832e709f7989e413a78c123f1d6da83e4caa6","unresolved":false,"context_lines":[{"line_number":20,"context_line":""},{"line_number":21,"context_line":"    .. warning::"},{"line_number":22,"context_line":""},{"line_number":23,"context_line":"       While you may find reference to PostgreSQL within the project"},{"line_number":24,"context_line":"       trees, be aware that it is much less tested and supported than"},{"line_number":25,"context_line":"       MySQL as a backend. Proceed at your own risk in using something"},{"line_number":26,"context_line":"       other than MySQL as the database for OpenStack."},{"line_number":27,"context_line":""},{"line_number":28,"context_line":"* Investigate the viability of the migration path from PostgreSQL to MySQL"},{"line_number":29,"context_line":"  (Suse team is currently doing this, will report back). In this investigation"}],"source_content_type":"text/x-rst","patch_set":3,"id":"ff0f0b1f_0ec94d77","line":26,"range":{"start_line":23,"start_character":0,"end_line":26,"end_character":54},"in_reply_to":"ff0f0b1f_e4e3e3a3","updated":"2017-05-17 19:47:41.000000000","message":"See above. If you\u0027re making a break, make a clean break and don\u0027t allow individual projects to implement specifically around a \"non-supported\" database.","commit_id":"ad1eb40c1e04cd2923f602f2873bc2b93210f261"},{"author":{"_account_id":11437,"name":"Jim Meyer","email":"jim@geekdaily.org","username":"jim.meyer"},"change_message_id":"ed8832e709f7989e413a78c123f1d6da83e4caa6","unresolved":false,"context_lines":[{"line_number":26,"context_line":"       other than MySQL as the database for OpenStack."},{"line_number":27,"context_line":""},{"line_number":28,"context_line":"* Investigate the viability of the migration path from PostgreSQL to MySQL"},{"line_number":29,"context_line":"  (Suse team is currently doing this, will report back). In this investigation"},{"line_number":30,"context_line":"  attention needs to be paid not just to the database tables themselves but"},{"line_number":31,"context_line":"  also associated tooling that deployments may have developed to manage their"},{"line_number":32,"context_line":"  database. While no migration will be able to account for this tooling,"}],"source_content_type":"text/x-rst","patch_set":3,"id":"ff0f0b1f_4e21854d","line":29,"range":{"start_line":29,"start_character":3,"end_line":29,"end_character":36},"updated":"2017-05-17 19:47:41.000000000","message":"I\u0027ll offer some clarity here. We\u0027re looking into this because this decision to deprecate PostgreSQL necessitates that we, and others, change production deployments to a new, community-supported database. Some of these deployments have been in production for years.\n\nWe will make sure we take care of our customers. That\u0027s what we do. None of us is excited or happy to go make changes in our customers\u0027 datacenters which make no new value for them or us.\n\nAnd SUSE is all caps, please.","commit_id":"ad1eb40c1e04cd2923f602f2873bc2b93210f261"},{"author":{"_account_id":9397,"name":"Allison Randal","email":"allison@lohutok.net","username":"wendar"},"change_message_id":"d987b979710a5a3bbecfe7fe5c7087885f9c5941","unresolved":false,"context_lines":[{"line_number":26,"context_line":"       other than MySQL as the database for OpenStack."},{"line_number":27,"context_line":""},{"line_number":28,"context_line":"* Investigate the viability of the migration path from PostgreSQL to MySQL"},{"line_number":29,"context_line":"  (Suse team is currently doing this, will report back). In this investigation"},{"line_number":30,"context_line":"  attention needs to be paid not just to the database tables themselves but"},{"line_number":31,"context_line":"  also associated tooling that deployments may have developed to manage their"},{"line_number":32,"context_line":"  database. While no migration will be able to account for this tooling,"}],"source_content_type":"text/x-rst","patch_set":3,"id":"ff0f0b1f_91cb40a4","line":29,"range":{"start_line":29,"start_character":3,"end_line":29,"end_character":36},"in_reply_to":"ff0f0b1f_4e21854d","updated":"2017-05-17 20:04:47.000000000","message":"To clarify the clarification: SUSE was already looking into what would be involved in migrating existing deployments from PostgreSQL to MySQL, because we\u0027re merging a MySQL-based OpenStack product with a PostgreSQL-based OpenStack product. So, it\u0027s pretty easy to share the results of the investigation work we\u0027re doing anyway. We haven\u0027t made a final decision yet on which way to go, but deprecation upstream tilts the scales pretty firmly toward MySQL. TBH, the scales were already tilting in that direction anyway, for a few different reasons, including the amount of work spent resolving problems with PostgreSQL in the past two releases.","commit_id":"ad1eb40c1e04cd2923f602f2873bc2b93210f261"},{"author":{"_account_id":11526,"name":"Martin Millnert","email":"martin@millnert.se","username":"Anticimex"},"change_message_id":"df37aa61c532f6ef4acf2deea5d4994beca7fb38","unresolved":false,"context_lines":[{"line_number":26,"context_line":"       other than MySQL as the database for OpenStack."},{"line_number":27,"context_line":""},{"line_number":28,"context_line":"* Investigate the viability of the migration path from PostgreSQL to MySQL"},{"line_number":29,"context_line":"  (Suse team is currently doing this, will report back). In this investigation"},{"line_number":30,"context_line":"  attention needs to be paid not just to the database tables themselves but"},{"line_number":31,"context_line":"  also associated tooling that deployments may have developed to manage their"},{"line_number":32,"context_line":"  database. While no migration will be able to account for this tooling,"}],"source_content_type":"text/x-rst","patch_set":3,"id":"ff0f0b1f_bcd5edbb","line":29,"range":{"start_line":29,"start_character":3,"end_line":29,"end_character":36},"in_reply_to":"ff0f0b1f_91cb40a4","updated":"2017-05-18 08:15:05.000000000","message":"I\u0027m super interested to learn what those problems were and how accurate it is to claim that PG is the source of the problems, because, to me, PG in OpenStack has served as a canary finding buggy code due to behaving more strict \u0026 correct than MySQL. And this is a positive rather than negative thing.","commit_id":"ad1eb40c1e04cd2923f602f2873bc2b93210f261"},{"author":{"_account_id":2,"name":"Monty Taylor","email":"mordred@inaugust.com","username":"mordred"},"change_message_id":"de73137b5a3a80b05cb63f878e9256203501d201","unresolved":false,"context_lines":[{"line_number":10,"context_line":"community should clarify its position on the use of PostgreSQL:"},{"line_number":11,"context_line":""},{"line_number":12,"context_line":"* there is very limited testing of the use of PostgreSQL in CI"},{"line_number":13,"context_line":"* there is very limited expertise and attention to the use of PostgreSQL in"},{"line_number":14,"context_line":"  OpenStack in the upstream community"},{"line_number":15,"context_line":"* operators and deployers using PostgreSQL with OpenStack are not"},{"line_number":16,"context_line":"  as visible in the upstream community as the most common database,"}],"source_content_type":"text/x-rst","patch_set":4,"id":"ff0f0b1f_122c7297","line":13,"updated":"2017-05-21 16:28:21.000000000","message":"I like that this document is short - but it might make sense to think about bullets 2 and 3 in terms of what the problem is that they cause. Since things seem to \"work\" today, people seem to have a hard time understanding why there may be a problem.\n\nFor 2, the limited expertise and attention means that design decisions in OpenStack do not incorporate PG best practices or operational concerns, leading to usage patterns that are optimized for and designed around only MySQL\n\nFor 3 it means we don\u0027t have any feedback loop influencing the work in 2, nor is there knowledge sharing among deployers, so building a best practices among operators isn\u0027t happening, nor are those best practices feeding back into the way OpenStack does things.\n\nThat is:\n\n1 is about correctness. Without 1 it\u0027s possible the SQL could be incorrect and cause an actual direct error.\n\n2 is about design. Without 2 even if the SQL all does the right things, things are not going to get BETTER in any appreciable way.\n\n3 is about user feedback. Without 3 we can\u0027t validate design choices from 2 nor can we collaborate on better solutions to problems.","commit_id":"29d77395b125fe04e9832364927f20c4478dd807"},{"author":{"_account_id":11564,"name":"Chris Dent","email":"cdent@anticdent.org","username":"chdent"},"change_message_id":"98dcf5e5c7f90849cebb962694fd4d1169ec5c61","unresolved":false,"context_lines":[{"line_number":10,"context_line":"community should clarify its position on the use of PostgreSQL:"},{"line_number":11,"context_line":""},{"line_number":12,"context_line":"* there is very limited testing of the use of PostgreSQL in CI"},{"line_number":13,"context_line":"* there is very limited expertise and attention to the use of PostgreSQL in"},{"line_number":14,"context_line":"  OpenStack in the upstream community"},{"line_number":15,"context_line":"* operators and deployers using PostgreSQL with OpenStack are not"},{"line_number":16,"context_line":"  as visible in the upstream community as the most common database,"}],"source_content_type":"text/x-rst","patch_set":4,"id":"ff0f0b1f_0cf1ee6b","line":13,"in_reply_to":"ff0f0b1f_122c7297","updated":"2017-05-22 08:37:10.000000000","message":"I\u0027ve tried to make an effort in this document to leave out too much discussion of cause and effect or effects of the causes because then people start thinking about solutions to those problems and I specifically don\u0027t want to get into that.\n\nInstead what we have is a wound that needs to be stabilized, soon. After that we can deal the other issues. Otherwise we\u0027ll continue to go round in circles and never get anywhere or we will go further than the bandaid but blindly, without resolving the important philosophical difference that you identified.\n\n* We need to stop the bleeding\n* Resolve the philosophical discussion\n* plan the next steps\n\nin that order.\n\nBut your points make sense. I\u0027ll let it cook for a while today and see what other feedback happens.","commit_id":"29d77395b125fe04e9832364927f20c4478dd807"},{"author":{"_account_id":2,"name":"Monty Taylor","email":"mordred@inaugust.com","username":"mordred"},"change_message_id":"de73137b5a3a80b05cb63f878e9256203501d201","unresolved":false,"context_lines":[{"line_number":19,"context_line":"These situations are directly related to a lack of humans willing or"},{"line_number":20,"context_line":"assigned to work on PostgreSQL in the OpenStack upstream community."},{"line_number":21,"context_line":""},{"line_number":22,"context_line":"To make this situation clear we should:"},{"line_number":23,"context_line":""},{"line_number":24,"context_line":"* Add warnings to operator facing documentation::"},{"line_number":25,"context_line":""}],"source_content_type":"text/x-rst","patch_set":4,"id":"ff0f0b1f_1251120f","line":22,"updated":"2017-05-21 16:28:21.000000000","message":"We should also remove any sentences from the Operator documentation that explicitly say \"Postgres is an option\"","commit_id":"29d77395b125fe04e9832364927f20c4478dd807"},{"author":{"_account_id":2,"name":"Monty Taylor","email":"mordred@inaugust.com","username":"mordred"},"change_message_id":"de73137b5a3a80b05cb63f878e9256203501d201","unresolved":false,"context_lines":[{"line_number":27,"context_line":""},{"line_number":28,"context_line":"       While you may find reference to PostgreSQL within the project"},{"line_number":29,"context_line":"       trees, be aware that it is much less tested and supported than"},{"line_number":30,"context_line":"       MySQL as a backend. If you wish to proceed at your own risk,"},{"line_number":31,"context_line":"       we recommend a thorough testing of your use case scenarios."},{"line_number":32,"context_line":"       It would be prudent to test milestones and release candidates"},{"line_number":33,"context_line":"       for newer releases as well to prevent any regressions."}],"source_content_type":"text/x-rst","patch_set":4,"id":"ff0f0b1f_52466a51","line":30,"updated":"2017-05-21 16:28:21.000000000","message":"Maybe \"be aware that the OpenStack developer community is primarily focused on MySQL as a backend.\" (I worry about focusing too much weight to the word \"tested\" as that might imply to someone that simply re-enabling the PG devstack jobs would \u0027fix\u0027 things.","commit_id":"29d77395b125fe04e9832364927f20c4478dd807"},{"author":{"_account_id":11564,"name":"Chris Dent","email":"cdent@anticdent.org","username":"chdent"},"change_message_id":"98dcf5e5c7f90849cebb962694fd4d1169ec5c61","unresolved":false,"context_lines":[{"line_number":27,"context_line":""},{"line_number":28,"context_line":"       While you may find reference to PostgreSQL within the project"},{"line_number":29,"context_line":"       trees, be aware that it is much less tested and supported than"},{"line_number":30,"context_line":"       MySQL as a backend. If you wish to proceed at your own risk,"},{"line_number":31,"context_line":"       we recommend a thorough testing of your use case scenarios."},{"line_number":32,"context_line":"       It would be prudent to test milestones and release candidates"},{"line_number":33,"context_line":"       for newer releases as well to prevent any regressions."}],"source_content_type":"text/x-rst","patch_set":4,"id":"ff0f0b1f_4cfec637","line":30,"in_reply_to":"ff0f0b1f_52466a51","updated":"2017-05-22 08:37:10.000000000","message":"Fair point.","commit_id":"29d77395b125fe04e9832364927f20c4478dd807"},{"author":{"_account_id":2,"name":"Monty Taylor","email":"mordred@inaugust.com","username":"mordred"},"change_message_id":"de73137b5a3a80b05cb63f878e9256203501d201","unresolved":false,"context_lines":[{"line_number":39,"context_line":"  database. While no migration will be able to account for this tooling,"},{"line_number":40,"context_line":"  documentation of troublesome areas will be very valuable to migrators."},{"line_number":41,"context_line":""},{"line_number":42,"context_line":"* Communicate to the OpenStack Foundation that there needs to be a way for"},{"line_number":43,"context_line":"  distributors to report back aggregate data about their users, who are not"},{"line_number":44,"context_line":"  self reporting to the survey. Our ability to make decisions off the survey is"},{"line_number":45,"context_line":"  impacted by large bits of missing information that distributors have access"}],"source_content_type":"text/x-rst","patch_set":4,"id":"ff0f0b1f_d225daac","line":42,"updated":"2017-05-21 16:28:21.000000000","message":"I think this should be OpenStack Foundation Staff - or it might be the User Committee - I know the UC used to own the survey, can\u0027t remember if they still do or if the staff are the ones to coordinate with.\n\nWe\u0027re all part of the Foundation.","commit_id":"29d77395b125fe04e9832364927f20c4478dd807"},{"author":{"_account_id":11564,"name":"Chris Dent","email":"cdent@anticdent.org","username":"chdent"},"change_message_id":"98dcf5e5c7f90849cebb962694fd4d1169ec5c61","unresolved":false,"context_lines":[{"line_number":39,"context_line":"  database. While no migration will be able to account for this tooling,"},{"line_number":40,"context_line":"  documentation of troublesome areas will be very valuable to migrators."},{"line_number":41,"context_line":""},{"line_number":42,"context_line":"* Communicate to the OpenStack Foundation that there needs to be a way for"},{"line_number":43,"context_line":"  distributors to report back aggregate data about their users, who are not"},{"line_number":44,"context_line":"  self reporting to the survey. Our ability to make decisions off the survey is"},{"line_number":45,"context_line":"  impacted by large bits of missing information that distributors have access"}],"source_content_type":"text/x-rst","patch_set":4,"id":"ff0f0b1f_0c968ef1","line":42,"in_reply_to":"ff0f0b1f_d225daac","updated":"2017-05-22 08:37:10.000000000","message":"yeah, good point,","commit_id":"29d77395b125fe04e9832364927f20c4478dd807"},{"author":{"_account_id":2,"name":"Monty Taylor","email":"mordred@inaugust.com","username":"mordred"},"change_message_id":"de73137b5a3a80b05cb63f878e9256203501d201","unresolved":false,"context_lines":[{"line_number":45,"context_line":"  impacted by large bits of missing information that distributors have access"},{"line_number":46,"context_line":"  to."},{"line_number":47,"context_line":""},{"line_number":48,"context_line":"* Communicate to the OpenStack Foundation that if users and Foundation members"},{"line_number":49,"context_line":"  require support for PostgreSQL, resources must be sourced from members to"},{"line_number":50,"context_line":"  expand the limited testing, expertise and attention mentioned above."},{"line_number":51,"context_line":""}],"source_content_type":"text/x-rst","patch_set":4,"id":"ff0f0b1f_923762e4","line":48,"updated":"2017-05-21 16:28:21.000000000","message":"I think this one might want to be OpenStack Foundation Board of Directors, since they would be the ones in a position to drive a general push for adequate resources both from an education perspective and a request perspective.","commit_id":"29d77395b125fe04e9832364927f20c4478dd807"},{"author":{"_account_id":11564,"name":"Chris Dent","email":"cdent@anticdent.org","username":"chdent"},"change_message_id":"98dcf5e5c7f90849cebb962694fd4d1169ec5c61","unresolved":false,"context_lines":[{"line_number":45,"context_line":"  impacted by large bits of missing information that distributors have access"},{"line_number":46,"context_line":"  to."},{"line_number":47,"context_line":""},{"line_number":48,"context_line":"* Communicate to the OpenStack Foundation that if users and Foundation members"},{"line_number":49,"context_line":"  require support for PostgreSQL, resources must be sourced from members to"},{"line_number":50,"context_line":"  expand the limited testing, expertise and attention mentioned above."},{"line_number":51,"context_line":""}],"source_content_type":"text/x-rst","patch_set":4,"id":"ff0f0b1f_cc9f7601","line":48,"in_reply_to":"ff0f0b1f_923762e4","updated":"2017-05-22 08:37:10.000000000","message":"this too","commit_id":"29d77395b125fe04e9832364927f20c4478dd807"},{"author":{"_account_id":11904,"name":"Sean McGinnis","email":"sean.mcginnis@gmail.com","username":"SeanM"},"change_message_id":"d0831a0cf7a6996e25381dade5ee24a762141479","unresolved":false,"context_lines":[{"line_number":50,"context_line":"  impacted by large bits of missing information that distributors have access"},{"line_number":51,"context_line":"  to."},{"line_number":52,"context_line":""},{"line_number":53,"context_line":"* Communicate to the OpenStack Foundation Board of Directoros that if users"},{"line_number":54,"context_line":"  and Foundation members require support for PostgreSQL, resources must be"},{"line_number":55,"context_line":"  sourced from members to expand the limited testing, expertise and attention"},{"line_number":56,"context_line":"  mentioned above."}],"source_content_type":"text/x-rst","patch_set":5,"id":"ff0f0b1f_7a2a272c","line":53,"range":{"start_line":53,"start_character":51,"end_line":53,"end_character":61},"updated":"2017-05-23 15:12:41.000000000","message":"s/Directoros/Directors/","commit_id":"ee14ae0ac42277173eceefd02f9e4a3cbe0ee774"},{"author":{"_account_id":5263,"name":"Jeremy Stanley","display_name":"fungi","email":"fungi@yuggoth.org","username":"fungi","status":"missing, presumed fed"},"change_message_id":"550b904b453eced23d67ab228a76ed501a8a3234","unresolved":false,"context_lines":[{"line_number":11,"context_line":""},{"line_number":12,"context_line":"* there is very limited testing of the use of PostgreSQL in CI,"},{"line_number":13,"context_line":"  meaning there is a greater than zero chance that OpenStack\u0027s use"},{"line_number":14,"context_line":"  of the database is not correct when using PostgreSQL"},{"line_number":15,"context_line":"* there is very limited expertise and attention to the use of PostgreSQL in"},{"line_number":16,"context_line":"  OpenStack in the upstream community, meaning that design decisions"},{"line_number":17,"context_line":"  made in relation to use of the database may not incorporate"}],"source_content_type":"text/x-rst","patch_set":6,"id":"ff0f0b1f_8a691efa","line":14,"updated":"2017-05-23 21:02:28.000000000","message":"Circuitous phrasing... I mean, there\u0027s a nonzero chance that our use of MySQL is incorrect too, just a much smaller nonzero chance. How about \"there is a much greater chance that OpenStack\u0027s use of the database is not correct when using PostgreSQL\"","commit_id":"433525e4c914385a8293af98ccf186581d2eab3d"},{"author":{"_account_id":11564,"name":"Chris Dent","email":"cdent@anticdent.org","username":"chdent"},"change_message_id":"2bc1b4a0d0af94b6b9dce34a5c052a2a94876fc5","unresolved":false,"context_lines":[{"line_number":11,"context_line":""},{"line_number":12,"context_line":"* there is very limited testing of the use of PostgreSQL in CI,"},{"line_number":13,"context_line":"  meaning there is a greater than zero chance that OpenStack\u0027s use"},{"line_number":14,"context_line":"  of the database is not correct when using PostgreSQL"},{"line_number":15,"context_line":"* there is very limited expertise and attention to the use of PostgreSQL in"},{"line_number":16,"context_line":"  OpenStack in the upstream community, meaning that design decisions"},{"line_number":17,"context_line":"  made in relation to use of the database may not incorporate"}],"source_content_type":"text/x-rst","patch_set":6,"id":"ff0f0b1f_e5d7abed","line":14,"in_reply_to":"ff0f0b1f_8a691efa","updated":"2017-05-23 21:43:16.000000000","message":"Yes, I agree it is bit of a mouthful, but I\u0027m trying to respond to the people who want greater emphasis on MySQL being more blessed (by virtue of the various factors).\n\nYour suggestion is a good one, I\u0027ll consider incorporating it in the next version, but what I\u0027m trying to do in this document is mention MySQL as little as possible so that it is more strongly in contrast with the original proposal and more clearly points out what could change with regard to pg (irrespective of any changes with regard to mysql) for things to be different.","commit_id":"433525e4c914385a8293af98ccf186581d2eab3d"},{"author":{"_account_id":5263,"name":"Jeremy Stanley","display_name":"fungi","email":"fungi@yuggoth.org","username":"fungi","status":"missing, presumed fed"},"change_message_id":"550b904b453eced23d67ab228a76ed501a8a3234","unresolved":false,"context_lines":[{"line_number":21,"context_line":"  MySQL_ and its variants"},{"line_number":22,"context_line":""},{"line_number":23,"context_line":"These situations are directly related to a lack of humans willing or"},{"line_number":24,"context_line":"assigned to work on PostgreSQL in the OpenStack upstream community."},{"line_number":25,"context_line":""},{"line_number":26,"context_line":"To make this situation clear we should:"},{"line_number":27,"context_line":""}],"source_content_type":"text/x-rst","patch_set":6,"id":"ff0f0b1f_6a6a4aed","line":24,"updated":"2017-05-23 21:02:28.000000000","message":"In contrast, do we have humans assigned to work on MySQL in the OpenStack upstream community, or do we just happen to have plenty of people who are intimately familiar with it (for any of a number of reasons, perhaps not the least of which is that MySQL _is_ used more frequently than PostgreSQL outside OpenStack too)?","commit_id":"433525e4c914385a8293af98ccf186581d2eab3d"},{"author":{"_account_id":5263,"name":"Jeremy Stanley","display_name":"fungi","email":"fungi@yuggoth.org","username":"fungi","status":"missing, presumed fed"},"change_message_id":"49d064b58506d1f63bc6d28c268570b2d32411a8","unresolved":false,"context_lines":[{"line_number":21,"context_line":"  MySQL_ and its variants"},{"line_number":22,"context_line":""},{"line_number":23,"context_line":"These situations are directly related to a lack of humans willing or"},{"line_number":24,"context_line":"assigned to work on PostgreSQL in the OpenStack upstream community."},{"line_number":25,"context_line":""},{"line_number":26,"context_line":"To make this situation clear we should:"},{"line_number":27,"context_line":""}],"source_content_type":"text/x-rst","patch_set":6,"id":"ff0f0b1f_80d8dd7a","line":24,"updated":"2017-05-23 22:16:03.000000000","message":"Thanks, I think I just have knee-jerk reactions making me want to get in front of the devil\u0027s advocate arguments with preemptive counterarguments whenever possible.","commit_id":"433525e4c914385a8293af98ccf186581d2eab3d"},{"author":{"_account_id":11564,"name":"Chris Dent","email":"cdent@anticdent.org","username":"chdent"},"change_message_id":"2bc1b4a0d0af94b6b9dce34a5c052a2a94876fc5","unresolved":false,"context_lines":[{"line_number":21,"context_line":"  MySQL_ and its variants"},{"line_number":22,"context_line":""},{"line_number":23,"context_line":"These situations are directly related to a lack of humans willing or"},{"line_number":24,"context_line":"assigned to work on PostgreSQL in the OpenStack upstream community."},{"line_number":25,"context_line":""},{"line_number":26,"context_line":"To make this situation clear we should:"},{"line_number":27,"context_line":""}],"source_content_type":"text/x-rst","patch_set":6,"id":"ff0f0b1f_4537774e","line":24,"in_reply_to":"ff0f0b1f_6a6a4aed","updated":"2017-05-23 21:43:16.000000000","message":"Perhaps, but see above about wanting to mention mysql as little as possible.","commit_id":"433525e4c914385a8293af98ccf186581d2eab3d"},{"author":{"_account_id":5046,"name":"Lance Bragstad","email":"lbragstad@redhat.com","username":"ldbragst"},"change_message_id":"6dda47ae6b87e314781b84fcbb7cd158b4ed50d7","unresolved":false,"context_lines":[{"line_number":25,"context_line":""},{"line_number":26,"context_line":"To make this situation clear we should:"},{"line_number":27,"context_line":""},{"line_number":28,"context_line":"* Remove references to PostgresSQL in existing operator facing"},{"line_number":29,"context_line":"  documentation and add warnings where necessary that say::"},{"line_number":30,"context_line":""},{"line_number":31,"context_line":"    .. warning::"}],"source_content_type":"text/x-rst","patch_set":6,"id":"df140735_3e4e6cc1","line":28,"updated":"2017-06-07 15:42:00.000000000","message":"PostgreSQL*","commit_id":"433525e4c914385a8293af98ccf186581d2eab3d"},{"author":{"_account_id":6873,"name":"Matt Riedemann","email":"mriedem.os@gmail.com","username":"mriedem"},"change_message_id":"ce3550b620f961663097096bb7a880046f9e37d8","unresolved":false,"context_lines":[{"line_number":25,"context_line":""},{"line_number":26,"context_line":"To make this situation clear we should:"},{"line_number":27,"context_line":""},{"line_number":28,"context_line":"* Remove references to PostgresSQL in existing operator facing"},{"line_number":29,"context_line":"  documentation and add warnings where necessary that say::"},{"line_number":30,"context_line":""},{"line_number":31,"context_line":"    .. warning::"},{"line_number":32,"context_line":""}],"source_content_type":"text/x-rst","patch_set":6,"id":"df140735_f383b0a8","line":29,"range":{"start_line":28,"start_character":2,"end_line":29,"end_character":59},"updated":"2017-06-06 20:14:25.000000000","message":"Remove and add warnings is confusing. At the summit there was talk of removing any references to PG from the docs, and I thought consensus was to not remove but add warnings.","commit_id":"433525e4c914385a8293af98ccf186581d2eab3d"},{"author":{"_account_id":5046,"name":"Lance Bragstad","email":"lbragstad@redhat.com","username":"ldbragst"},"change_message_id":"6dda47ae6b87e314781b84fcbb7cd158b4ed50d7","unresolved":false,"context_lines":[{"line_number":26,"context_line":"To make this situation clear we should:"},{"line_number":27,"context_line":""},{"line_number":28,"context_line":"* Remove references to PostgresSQL in existing operator facing"},{"line_number":29,"context_line":"  documentation and add warnings where necessary that say::"},{"line_number":30,"context_line":""},{"line_number":31,"context_line":"    .. warning::"},{"line_number":32,"context_line":""}],"source_content_type":"text/x-rst","patch_set":6,"id":"df140735_5effe033","line":29,"in_reply_to":"df140735_f383b0a8","updated":"2017-06-07 15:42:00.000000000","message":"Seems like we either need to remove all together or keep and add warnings.","commit_id":"433525e4c914385a8293af98ccf186581d2eab3d"},{"author":{"_account_id":2472,"name":"Doug Hellmann","email":"dhellmann@redhat.com","username":"doug-hellmann"},"change_message_id":"07d48bda3b4e178384fdc88d658e85cc5653cf2e","unresolved":false,"context_lines":[{"line_number":53,"context_line":"* Communicate to the OpenStack Foundation Board of Directors that if users"},{"line_number":54,"context_line":"  and Foundation members require support for PostgreSQL, resources must be"},{"line_number":55,"context_line":"  sourced from members to expand the limited testing, expertise and attention"},{"line_number":56,"context_line":"  mentioned above."},{"line_number":57,"context_line":""},{"line_number":58,"context_line":".. _sqlalchemy: https://www.sqlalchemy.org/"},{"line_number":59,"context_line":".. _PostgreSQL: https://www.postgresql.org/"}],"source_content_type":"text/x-rst","patch_set":6,"id":"df140735_b3c41861","line":56,"updated":"2017-06-06 19:59:42.000000000","message":"It was my impression that at least some of the people who raised this issue are actively pushing to drop Postgresql support. If we go to the Board asking for help and then get it, are we going to accept that help gracefully?","commit_id":"433525e4c914385a8293af98ccf186581d2eab3d"}]}